Dan Pollak: What We Can Learn from Youth Ministry
In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Dan Pollak, Kids Ministry Director at Flatirons Church in Colorado. They dig into what kids ministry can learn from youth culture, how to challenge kids without losing them, and the critical role a consistent small group leader plays in a child's spiritual growth. They also get surprisingly honest about the real cost — financial and otherwise — of building original curriculum from scratch.
This one is full of gems. Don't miss it.
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Transcript
KIDMIN U Team (00:00)
Well, Dan, welcome to the podcast.
Dan Pollak (00:02)
Well hey, I'm so excited to be here Jeremy, thanks for having me.
KIDMIN U Team (00:06)
man, excited to have you on. Listen, ⁓ we connected a little while back, a few months ago. ⁓ I was trying to connect with some leaders and get some feedback on KidmanU and really figure out what leaders are looking for, what would really help. That was the first time we'd actually jumped on a call, we talked together, and I loved our conversation so much. I had two takeaways from that. Number one is I want to talk to this guy again. And number two,
Dan Pollak (00:24)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (00:34)
You've got a voice for radio, dude. Like it's silky smooth. And so it was only natural. Let's kill two birds with one stone and have them on the podcast.
Dan Pollak (00:36)
Hahaha
There we go. You know, it's funny, Jeremy, I worked at Starbucks for seven years and I was always the main person handing out dreams at the bar. And the mountains, people told me, you know, like, hey, you have a voice for radio. And I'm like, cool, I don't know what that means. But sick. I don't think I had ever listened to the radio up till then. But hey, that's what the beauty of podcast is. It's the modern day radio.
KIDMIN U Team (01:06)
Yeah, for sure. Okay, you are currently serving at Flatirons right now. We'll talk about that.
in a little bit, it's an amazing church. But before we do, I'd love for you to kind of share with us, how'd you get started in kids ministry and how'd you end up doing what you're doing now?
Dan Pollak (01:22)
Yeah, absolutely, man. Well, I mean, I've been I feel like I've been in church since like day one of my life. ⁓ I always used to tell people that I was in the womb on Tuesday and I was in the nursery room by Sunday. So I've been in church since day one. ⁓ My grandma was a huge influence in my life, especially when it came to my faith. ⁓ And I just always had a heart for Jesus. Like to the point I used to go for to like Bible study fellowship back in the day when I was like four or five before I started kindergarten and.
I would be leading kids to Jesus out on the playground at McDonald's doing communion with McNuggets and ketchup. ⁓ growing up, like I just always had a hard to tell others about Jesus and why I love Jesus. ⁓ And I started serving in some grade. And I remember Ms. Sharon, I was at a church out in Arizona. She was the kids director and she saw me interacting with my best buddies, younger nieces and nephews that day.
And she comes up to me as like, heading out to the parking lot. So she chased me down that classic example of like a kids ministry person will literally go to the ends of the earth to recruit you to serve. That's what she did. All right. And she chased me down. I'm a son of great boys. She's like, hey, do you serve? And I was like, no. She's like, I saw you interact with those kids. Next week you start. And I was like, OK, cool. I went home that day. like, mom, I think I'm a volunteer now.
KIDMIN U Team (02:27)
100%.
Dan Pollak (02:44)
Eventually, like I just started serving in kids ministry. I was a seventh grader put with a group of second graders, which I don't know how many churches allow that nowadays, but they trusted me back then. And as they got older and as I got older, I moved up with them. And basically to the point when I graduated high school, I was like, man, I know I want to work with kids. I came from a family of educators. So it kind of I was leaning towards that route, but there's a part of me I was like, what's ministry look like?
And I stepped in ⁓ to an internship at my church kind of during a very difficult time with my church. We were going for a massive like ⁓ upheaval with a massive moral failure. And it was during that time that I was like, no, I want to step in and help out any way I can. so my one year internship became what I call a three year residency. ⁓ I was there about 55 hours a week, just serving out a goodness in my heart ⁓ and loved it.
And eventually I was brought on staff once everything was kind of settled and did kids ministry as a small group director in the elementary side of things for a while. did student ministry for a while and led me back to after working with students. love students. I love the energy ⁓ that they bring, but there was a part of me. was like, man, I want to go back to kids ministry. And that's kind of where I'm at now. So I've been doing kids ministry in some way, shape or form since I was in seventh grade.
⁓ and I wouldn't want to do anything else.
KIDMIN U Team (04:14)
Wow. Okay, well, at the risk of starting the podcast on such a heavy note, I'm really interested because you mentioned that, as you were getting started as a young guy in ministry a church you grew up in or the church you were at at the time had a pretty big moral failure. And I know for a lot of leaders, when that happens, it would be very easy and very normal, by the way, if you responded to that by saying, well, I don't want to be part of this ministry thing if this is what it looks like.
Dan Pollak (04:30)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (04:42)
But you didn't do that. Tell me why.
Dan Pollak (04:45)
Yeah, man, I was a senior in high school ⁓ and our church was like, you know, they were in talks to start opening up multiple campuses. ⁓ You know, they had like six services that we're doing, like four on Sunday, two on Saturday. I was serving that five of them ⁓ and I would attend one. And ⁓ my heartbeat was not for just that church. My heart was for the church. ⁓ And. I knew when this happened, it hurt. It was sad.
⁓ Because to see this happen, it took place right after Christmas that year too. So like it was just like like the worst possible time that news like that can come out as you begin a new like calendar year. But I was like, hey, this church isn't centered around this one person. This church should be centered around Jesus. ⁓ And as a senior in high school, I was like, I want to lean in and sit about in that time. ⁓ And that's what I can continue to do. I was like, hey, like there's going to be families that are hurting because, know,
As much as we don't want it to be tied to like, you know, the lead pastor or somebody there, there's reasons why people continue to show back up at a church, right? ⁓ And like, I wanted to be there to support people, to support like my own friends in the high school ministry I grew up with, but also like, I was like, I just want to be here for the kids to continue to tell them about the gospel, the good news and that, you know, Hey, our faith isn't built on man, but it's built in God.
So, yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (06:18)
Yeah, it's interesting because people often don't think about the church that gets left behind. You know, we see what happens with that pastor. Obviously they're going to lose their job and, and in many cases they may never serve in ministry again. ⁓ but we often don't think about the aftermath for the people who stay.
Dan Pollak (06:29)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (06:37)
That's really interesting. Okay. Weird way to start a podcast, but you mentioned that and I'm really, ⁓ I'm really proud of you for staying and you wouldn't be here today if you hadn't made that choice. ⁓ I also love, man, you came from the student ministry world. Tell me a little bit about what it was like to go from student ministry to kids ministry
Dan Pollak (06:40)
Yeah.
for sure.
Yeah, well, I remember it was at the end of 2019. I had been our elementary small group director for, I guess, two and half years at that point and got to build something pretty cool at the church I was at out in Gilbert, Arizona, Mission Community Church. And I was was thriving. Like I had a bunch of coaches. We were recruiting small group leaders like crazy. It like the model was working and it was amazing to see it happen.
And then, and not only was it working in elementary, it was working in our preschool ministry and it was working in our student ministry as well. So it's like, we were collectively being a next-gen ministry that was serving our families well from babies all the way through post high school. And it was amazing and remarkable. And I remember all three of our student people on our team decided to transition out at the same time over an eight week period. All for great reasons, like our youth pastor, he went out to,
One of the North Point churches ⁓ out in the Georgia area. One of our guys, ⁓ he had always had a heart for, ⁓ this is funny to say it this way, but like dance, like that was his background. Like he was on America's Best Dance Crew like back in the day in one. So like his heart was like in the dance world ⁓ and like ministry and everything. And it's actually very funny because he just recently stepped back in the ministry. So yeah, he's just popping the knocking from the dance floor to Jesus back and forth. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (08:10)
Sure.
Dan Pollak (08:23)
And then our admin was transitioning out to go start, ⁓ I remember she was stepping into nursing school ⁓ at the end of 2019, not knowing what 2020 was about to hold. And I remember I got asked, ⁓ because a lot of the students that had been in student ministry were like some of very first kids I ever served with years ago. And a lot of them actually served in the elementary ministry now with me.
KIDMIN U Team (08:34)
boy.
Dan Pollak (08:50)
And so it just made sense because a lot of the relational like equity I had with them. And so I stepped in ⁓ and then I got the honor of a lifetime to do student ministry during a pandemic. And ⁓ I've worked through a lot of it since then. Counseling has been amazing. ⁓ But I got to ⁓ I got to do student ministry during like covid and just trying to figure it out. So not only was I trying to figure out like how to do student ministry, because I hadn't really dove into that realm.
KIDMIN U Team (09:01)
Ha
Dan Pollak (09:20)
But I was also trying to figure out how to do student ministry from like, you know, a YouTube screen or from like Twitch or from, you know, the various different like methods that we did. But I do remember as we came back, we were the very first thing back on campus. And I think the one thing I got to bring was I've always been like an organizational like, like, I like to be very organized, right? Like, and I think that probably taps into this stereotype of kids ministry, like.
Kids ministry people are always the more organized compared to the student person. ⁓ So I remember the amount of like the leaders like in student ministry at the time, they're just like, wow, you're very organized. I'm like, thank you. ⁓ But I just kind of brought that into it. And I remember like getting the lead through it. I led through that for about two years is the role I was in. ultimately I made the decision after just a very, I mean, that was a tough time to do ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (09:51)
100%.
Dan Pollak (10:15)
not just student ministry, but any type of ministry, right? Even out in Arizona, which acted like COVID was real for two weeks. It was still a difficult time to navigate all these things and the things that teenagers were dealing with. And not only that, I was still technically a part-time staff person leading an entire youth ministry and didn't have other staff support. so I think that was exciting and fun. And I learned a lot of lessons.
a lot of difficult lessons, ⁓ things that ultimately kind of cracked me for a second, but it allowed me to actually take a deeper sense of myself to set me up better for the long haul down the road. so I think I love student ministry. I have a heart still for it. And I love that in kids ministry, I kind of get the best of both worlds because we have so many students that start serving for the very first time in kids ministry. And so I get to kind of do that. But then, you know, I don't want to say like I'm passing them off when,
Life gets hard to their youth pastor, but like I get to partner with their youth pastor to make sure that, you know, like, Hey, we're still having the best impact in the life of these teenagers and everything too. so yeah, student ministry was a lot of fun, man. ⁓ I learned so much lessons I'm going to carry for the rest of my life and leadership and just who I am as a person because of my time in student ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (11:37)
Yeah, it's so cool how much overlap there is between kids and youth at least when you do it right like there should be a lot of alignment There should be a lot of collaboration And that's been my experience too, man. We have a ton of youth volunteers and that's a good thing I know some people can look at it sometimes as a burden because they do require sometimes a little bit more of a hands-on approach You know, you're gonna have to guide them a little bit more But if you take the time to do it, they can be some of the best volunteers in your team and even
Dan Pollak (11:41)
for sure.
KIDMIN U Team (12:07)
Thinking about my own story, I think I've shared this a little bit, but the first time I served in kids ministry ever, I was a freshman in high school and it was kind of by accident. It was like we were moving into a new building for our church. Everybody was being asked to find a place to serve, even the youth ministry. And I just looked around, I had some friends who were doing kids ministry. And so was like, all right, I guess I'll go with them. And ⁓ it was huge, man. I mean, there's more to that story, but I ended up.
Dan Pollak (12:15)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (12:34)
getting plugged into a fifth grade classroom with the same guy who was my fifth grade teacher when I was a kid. And I ended up serving there every Sunday for five years. I loved it, man. I was all in. And I'm really passionate about students serving outside of the youth group because in my experience, I had a ton of friends who were like heavily involved in the youth group. Like they were on leadership teams. They were like serving at events and all that stuff. But then they graduated.
Dan Pollak (12:39)
Mmm.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (13:04)
and they weren't allowed to be in the youth ministry anymore. And they felt so disconnected from the rest of the church. And some of them didn't make the jump and ultimately fizzled out. But if you've got a place to call home, somewhere in the church that you can't age out of, that is like a huge strategic move. And so for me, it didn't matter when I graduated. I can always serve in the kids ministry. Nothing changed for me. And so I think that's so healthy.
Dan Pollak (13:06)
Mm.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (13:30)
to get volunteers involved. And even hearing your story, man, you started serving when you were young too. Kids Mystery is a great training ground for that, even if you don't stay long-term.
Well, let me ask, man, because I think coming from the student ministry world into kids ministry, I imagine there were a ton of really interesting things you brought with you, What are some things you stole from the youth ministry world and brought with you to kids ministry?
Dan Pollak (13:54)
Yeah, no, that's a great question. think like there's the classic stereotypes and I want to dig a little further than just the stereotype of it. like, you know, for a long time, student ministry has always had the model of like, hey, they're fun. Right. And I actually think like when you dig down into it, fun helps break down barriers. And here's the thing. It doesn't matter if you're a kid or a teenager, you have to have fun. Like I remember reading a book
a long time ago about like, it was talking about the six things that kids need over time and teenagers and fun was one of them. This fun is like how you can relate to someone. ⁓ Even if you just met them, if you have fun with them, you like, I feel like the work that you just did to like break down barriers and to get to know one another, ⁓ like you expedited that so much because of fun. And I think not just the crazy fun that, know, like we think about like youth ministries doing back in like, you know, the early 2000s.
where, know, they're giving away like a PlayStation 2 or 3 or whatever and like all these like crazy like shenanigans that people did back in the day. But I think like the intentional fun moments to create space where they allowed ⁓ like, you know, teenagers to just get to be teenagers in that moment. And I think taking that same idea into like, hey, like let's just let kids be kids right now. I think so many of it's funny. Like this is the like constant ⁓
thing that we face just being human. Like adults always dream back to like when they were kids and kids always dream about wondering the adults, right? And it's like, hey, instead of like you guys dream about like the things in the future, let's just enjoy these moments right now that you guys have like being young and maybe not being exposed to the craziness that's going on around us. But like, hey, just enjoy being like a third grader for a moment. Just enjoy being a first grader ⁓ or fifth grader or whatever. And having those moments
⁓ in kids ministry and why couldn't that be at church? Like don't think of it as just church fun. Think of it, it's like, no, like you just get to have fun and it just happens to so like, yeah, church. ⁓ And so I think that's kind of some of the things that I've brought into it. I think another thing in Zoom ministry, they always do a good job of like, either speaking up or like knowing their audience well, that they can push them a little bit. I think that can be the same in kids ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (16:17)
Hmm
Dan Pollak (16:22)
Like I think so many times that you see in kids ministry, it's like, their kinders, like they won't understand. So like we have to dumb it down. It's like, why are we dumbing it down? Like, I'm not saying like, yeah, we need to talk about like the Christology of Paul, like to a kindergartner, because it's like, no one's like ready for that. But it's just like, hey, what does it look like to like, hey, this is like, this is the gospel. Here's the good news. Here's the like Bible passage. Here's the story. Like, how can we talk to them?
knowing that like, hey, even if it goes slightly above their heads, it does cause the way their mind works to start thinking about it and actually challenges them to think about it more than probably something that like if we dumbed it down into some sort of like rhyme, like for a kindergartener, it's like, no, like the longevity of them remembering something might go further if we actually push them a little bit as compared to just simplify it all the time. And so I think that's something that I brought into
like it's ministry ⁓ into thinking about like, hey, obviously some things like you can't do like the same thing like with a kindergartener as you can with a fifth grader, but in the same way, you can do the same thing with like a sixth grader that you could with a senior. ⁓ And so taking that ⁓ sort of mindset into how we like develop curriculum, how we take our content, how we just create moments for like kids to be able to respond.
KIDMIN U Team (17:36)
Sure.
Dan Pollak (17:48)
how we set up small groups. I think that's how we kind of focus in with that. And I think one of the things too, like student ministry has done well for a while, is just the realm of small groups. That's always been a big part of student ministry for as long as I can remember. It's like, join a small group, join a small group, join a small group. And I think that's actually an area that student ministry has like kids ministry be, is just the realm of small groups, of placing consistent leaders.
into the lives of teenagers so that way they can navigate life. Whereas I feel like kids ministry a lot of times, we like to just either settle for the volunteers we can get, right? Because we've all been in those moments where we've had a shortage of volunteers, where it's like, you can always serve every other week? OK, that's fine. But it's like, no, why shouldn't we want the same things for our kids? Knowing that statistically speaking,
they're actually more open and receptive to the things we're talking about than they are when they're teenagers. And so if we could intentionally set up like key, like consistent leaders in the lives of kids when they're younger and take some of the same mindset, like, couldn't we actually help set them up even better for when they are students and they're navigating even more difficulties in life that, you know, the things that like Jen alpha and Jen beta are navigating. And so I think those are some of the things that
as I spent that time in youth ministry and student ministry and then have stepped back into like kids ministry post COVID. And I also love that we talked about post COVID like that was six years ago now too. But we still talk about it like it was yesterday, but like stepping into it of like, hey, these are the things like that I wanna like lean into a little bit and try to like help redefine or maybe remold a little bit in the realm of kids ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (19:28)
I know, it's wild.
Okay. You mentioned three things I think are really interesting. The fun, think challenging kids a little bit, and then that relational consistency that comes with small groups. Let's take it one at a time because I actually want to camp out here for a little bit. ⁓ Fun. I think you talked about that and maybe like introduce the idea. What did that actually look like in a kids mystery context?
Dan Pollak (19:45)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, fun, think we think about like what kids watch, right? Like it's so funny the things that like kids think are fun now like on YouTube or YouTube shorts, which is where majority of our kids live. ⁓ They watch other people playing like Minecraft videos where they just watch like not really produce content. Like I think the most produced content they probably watch would be like bluey. ⁓ And like, but you think about most of the time like what they're watching on like YouTube. ⁓
is like not super like produced, not super like content heavy. It's just fun. It's ⁓ goofy. Like, and it's just kind of has this rawness in a sense of like, and when I mean that, like, it's just like, it's not like the Disney Channel or the Nickelodeon set, like we grew up like watching, right? Whereas like everything was like all the jokes were manufactured in, like, it's more just like, it's authentic to like what they want. ⁓ And so I think about
in the realm of like what we do, like filming like goofy videos, like in kids ministry, like announcement videos, right? Like I remember ⁓ back in the day, before I actually stepped into youth ministry, we're kind of, I feel like a little bit ahead of the game in the ⁓ pre-team ministry that I was an intern in, but we used to film like announcement videos that like I've shown kids, those videos are now like 10 to 12 years old now. But it was me sitting in the back of a pickup truck going through a circle K car wash.
⁓ And which like people ask me all the time. They're like, how did you like get allowed to do that? I'm like, hey, it's circle K. They're just happy you use their car wash. But like we would sit in the back of the car wash. Right. And like I would just be announcing like, hey, sign up for camp right now. Like and like as I'm just getting slapped in the face, like a seals like hit me with all the things going on. And it's like that stuff is still funny to like kids now. And it's like that wasn't produced heavily. That was like a GoPro.
KIDMIN U Team (21:41)
It's true.
Dan Pollak (22:01)
like in the backseat of a car as we went for a car wash. Like, and I think that's the stuff like they don't want super produced. They want fun. They want people that can just be their real selves, like on the camera as like that's how they perceive you to actually be in real life to like not like an actor per se. I would say to you, like when it comes to fun, like the games, like if you do games like on stage, like or like in the room, like
You don't need to go like too crazy. Like you don't need to just blend the happy meal in a blender anymore. Like, like to just get a shock and awe, like just like goofy games where, you know, a kid is doing something like, uh, up on stage, that's goofy. Like wearing a wig and catching like Easter aides as like the rest of the room, like throws like these plushy Easter aides into it. Like for a game on Easter, right? Like that game killed this weekend.
just because there's a hundred kids throwing Easter eggs, like plushie Easter eggs at another kid sort of stuff. So I think like some of those things, it's like some people as they're hearing this are like, that sounds like my worst nightmare. But it's like, I think a little bit of control chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing when it comes to funding kids ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (23:16)
Yeah, and I think what it is if I had to put my finger on it, I think we try and avoid the messy part of it. Like kids ministry people, like you said earlier, we're often super organized, we're planners, you know, we try and keep things structured on a weekend service or midweek or anything with kids. And so when I heard you saying that my mind immediately went to, well, how do I pick up the mess? How do I get the kids back in order? Like, like my mind went to logistics, right? And I think sometimes if we're not careful,
Dan Pollak (23:32)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (23:46)
we can sap the fun out of it because you're like, hey, this is a simple idea, let's just go for it and figure it out. And it was a hit. And I think if we're willing to sit in the mess a little bit, it actually might make our ministry way more engaging. ⁓ Because I think the same thing is true when it comes to like that level of challenge, right? That you talked about with youth ministry. This might be a good segue where I think sometimes we're, ⁓ how do I articulate this?
Dan Pollak (23:48)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (24:14)
If we're not careful, we can hold kids back, right? In the same way that our attempt to plan and have things structured can, if we're not careful, take the fun out of something. Also our teaching, if we're trying to make it like perfectly age appropriate, it might mean that we're not willing to challenge kids with a big idea. Take me into that. What's the appropriate way to like hold that tension? Because I do think there's something to be said for keeping things developmentally appropriate.
but there's also something to be said for pushing kids a little bit and challenging them. How do you hold that tension?
Dan Pollak (24:50)
Yeah, I think for me, man, like one of the things I always. If I'm not talking to kids, how am I going to know what they enjoy or how do I know what they know? And I think for me, that's something that I always like prioritized like now of like I obviously like running a ministry, running like, you know, a volunteer team that's fairly large and all these things like I don't get as much hands on like time like.
one-on-one, we're like, you know, in a small group setting with kids as like I used to like when I first started serving. But I still make it a priority to like get to know kids, to get to know what they like. ⁓ Not only because like I want to set the example for my leaders, but it's like I want to know what what are they thinking? ⁓ And so for me, it's like as I have conversations with kids, like whether it's a five year old or whether it's like a fifth grader and everything in between, like.
think the things I'm noticing is like, they know a little bit more than you realize they do. ⁓ Now, it's part of good stewardship in our sense of leaders to make sure that we ⁓ are mindful of things like, hey, like, there's probably certain things that when it comes to talking about it, it's like, we should focus on more equipping like parents to be able to have some of these conversations like baptism, right? Like we'll mention baptism, we'll talk about baptism, but I actually think a parent should help like lead that conversation.
⁓ More than like, you know, the classic like back in the day, like, no, your pastor had to baptize you. It's like, well, no, if your parents a believer, I would love for your parents to like, because they're the number one influence in that child's life. ⁓ But I think about to like the content that we're talking about. I think if we take it just like a slight half step above, like especially like in a teaching like way, right on stage, like if you're doing like a small group, large group model, which is like the contents of like what I've.
done and what I'm currently doing. The teaching should almost leave you thinking and not be given the answer right away. And so I think the way we shape up things like what are speaking to a K1 crowd or to a preteen-like crowd, it's like, hey, where are the questions that we can ask that are age-appropriate that take them a half step? So that way, when they go to their small group and they start to unpack it and they make it applicable here,
Like they make a story like feel like it's actually real. Like the moment that they just discussed like in the teaching or in the episode of whatever curriculum you're using. And so I think for me, those are some of the things like I'm thinking about as we set some good tension, ⁓ getting to know what kids like and what they're like into. Like, I think we always have to have that like mindset of like learning just as much from our kids as we are from anyone else.
KIDMIN U Team (27:43)
Yeah, you know, I've started to talk a little bit more openly about my thoughts on video teaching versus live teaching. ⁓ I think there was an era where video teaching was like in every single church and it probably still is. ⁓ But as I hear you talking about some of these things, I'm like, a lot of that I don't think is possible if you just press play on a video. Like it's impossible whenever you're producing that video from wherever you are, especially if you're getting it from a publisher who's trying to
Dan Pollak (28:07)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (28:13)
mass produce it for all American churches everywhere, you know. ⁓ It's hard when you're producing that video to account for the insights that you're talking about because you're talking about, I want to get to know these kids. I want to know how they're thinking about things. I want to know the questions that they're asking. I want to do small little tests to see how much they're actually engaging with to see if I can push them a little bit more. If I just press play, I can't do that. But if I've got a human, like a caring adult,
Dan Pollak (28:16)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (28:41)
who is responsible for guiding that experience, they 100 % can. They can tailor to their kids. They can push them a little bit. And so I think, you know, that's not what this conversation is about. I don't wanna like hijack it and turn it into video versus live teaching. There'll be other times for that and I've already talked about that. But I love what you said because I do think it's a tension that we hold. There's not a right answer. Like it's not okay just to stay in the safe area that is
Dan Pollak (28:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (29:10)
developmentally appropriate and it's also not okay to go on the other side and do crazy big words and crazy big ideas that kids aren't ready for. So just fun story. I'm not going to name names or anything, but I've got two babies at home, which means that my wife loves to pick out like storybooks and things like that for the kids. And we're constantly reading them with our kids. mean, my daughter will, we started putting the books on a shelf that she can reach.
Dan Pollak (29:16)
Yeah. ⁓ for sure.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (29:39)
So she'll grab them, bring them to us, we'll read it. She'll put it back, bring another one. And it's the same like five books that we will read for like an hour. And this is life right now. But there's one of those storybooks that I actually, I really don't like it. I was actually kind of like disappointed my wife spent money on it because it's one I've seen before. honestly, it's a great concept. It's a Christian storybook, but it's filled with like huge words, like things that like,
only a theologian would say. Like I know adults who don't know those words. And this was a book that was made for toddlers. And every time my daughter brings it to me, I actually like, I'm a little upset. was like, okay, I guess I'll read it for you. But there's part of me that's like, she's not ready for this. Like she's not ready for these ideas. And I actually want to be really careful about like how my child progresses and what they learn and in what order. And maybe I obsess over that more than the average person because I was a kid's pastor for so long.
Dan Pollak (30:27)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (30:38)
and because they're my kids and I just want what's best for them. ⁓ But I do think there's something to be said for like having small steps where you're pushing and challenging. Maybe not going from step A to step like D, but being like, hey, I think you're ready to go to like step B or maybe I see you're handling B really well, so let's try C. ⁓ I love that you're doing that. Is there any part of your ministry where that really takes a front and center role? Like what?
Dan Pollak (30:52)
yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (31:06)
What do you think of when we talk about challenging kids? Is it where you teach on stage with kids? Is this something that you would more train small group leaders when they have more time and space for this? Like, where do you see the appropriate time to push kids a little bit?
Dan Pollak (31:23)
I think this is where the role of a small group leader is so important. ⁓ Because I do think, we use video content currently at Flatirons. ⁓ And as it is the case with a lot of multi-site churches, that's kind of what we probably will use for a while. ⁓ But I think that's where the role of a small group leader to come in. Because here's the thing, the idea is they have the relational equity, I believe.
to be able to actually push that. To be able to like, hey, like, I know you could think a little bit more, right? Like I know I've had moments where I've led like four for fifth grade boys and you you're lucky like at the end of the day, if you've got three minutes of just like talking about Jesus and you're supposed to have a small group for 15 to 20 minutes and you're just like, okay, like I think they, like you said the word others and it sounded like others and then they just started mooing and then you just lost them.
Right. That happened to me. Actually, one of the very first messages I ever gave on stage, I got mood, not booed. I got mood off stage. So that that was a great confidence booster. was like, there goes my Andy Stanley career. But I think that's where the small group leader, though, is like able to push in as these leaders. That's why consistency matters, I believe, like in the life of like a small group leader, as they really get to know their kids and the kids who are consistently showing up into their
group every single week. Like I think that's where a leader can like push in or they know like when they could take a half step up a little bit because they've spent the time getting to know that kid hopefully they've spent the time to get to understand the the concepts of what that kid walks in with every single week. They get to know like what matters to that kid. They also know what that kid has done but also what they have the potential to do and I think that's where like a healthy small group leader who
is like really bought into what you're trying to do in your kids ministry. That's where they can take it to that next half step. And honestly, that's what we empower our small group leaders to want to do ⁓ is to take it like they're in a way getting to shepherd that child in that moment. And I think that's so, so, so important.
KIDMIN U Team (33:37)
I think so too. Okay, we've talked a little bit about some of the benefits that come from youth ministry culture that we can learn from, that we can ⁓ apply in kids ministry. I will say, I think over the last, ⁓ I don't know, let's say two decades, I think that has really helped make some healthy shifts in the kids ministry space. Like it used to be, there's a very real way of doing kids ministry. It was the Sunday school model and
Dan Pollak (33:47)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (34:06)
⁓ And I think that yielded fruit for a long time, but I think we've been able to see like, Hey, what is the youth ministry doing really well? And how can we learn from that? So for instance, large group, small group model, we stole that from youth ministry and it's great. It's been a game changer for so many people. I also think even the approach to small groups and that relational depth and consistency, like we took that from youth ministry. That's amazing. I think the way that we lead.
Dan Pollak (34:21)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (34:35)
You know, where it's not just, you know, back in the day, it was one person who was like a little worker bee who did all the work. They didn't develop people and they were just trying to juggle all the things at once. And now youth ministry culture has kind of taught us, hey, what would it look like if we tried to develop people and disciple people to carry some of the load? By the way, that's biblical. It's our job to, to equip the saints to do the work of ministry. But for some reason, it took a little bit for us to actually catch onto that. So I think.
Dan Pollak (34:42)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (35:05)
Youth ministry culture has helped a ton and even ⁓ even I would say the profile of a kids pastor has changed a little bit too again in the past it used to be ⁓ somebody with an education background often you know leading the kids ministry and that's great That's still that will always help but now you're seeing a profile of somebody who Is really using their leadership gifts a little bit more. I think that's a very healthy and welcome change for kids ministry All of that is the lead-up
Dan Pollak (35:17)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (35:34)
to the other part of this conversation, which is, I wonder what parts of youth ministry culture we've tried to adopt in kids ministry that maybe we're forcing, maybe we're taking some things that aren't meant to be applied in youth ministry and maybe it's not working quite the same way. ⁓ I've got some thoughts on this of what some of those things might look like, but I'm curious. Well, I'm curious what you've noticed in that regard because you're more close to it than I am. I haven't spent...
Dan Pollak (35:36)
Yeah.
Let's hear it.
KIDMIN U Team (36:03)
dedicated time on staff leading in youth ministry. From your perspective, have you caught yourself and said, hey, I'm tempted to implement this in my kids ministry, but maybe that actually isn't, maybe that was perfect for youth, but not for kids. What have you seen in that regard?
Dan Pollak (36:12)
Mm-hmm.
think the one thing that I noticed sometimes with kids ministry, they feel like ⁓ it feels like the classic younger sibling syndrome, right? Where like they feel like they almost have to copy identically what student ministry does. ⁓ And like that's unhealthy because like there should, like you said, ⁓ there should definitely be things that take place in student ministry that should not take place in kids ministry. ⁓ And so I think the balance
with kids in student ministry is that, hey, you should have a healthy kids ministry. Like in a healthy kids ministry, it looks like, hey, it should be a good on-ramp for students to start serving, right? Like that should be a healthy kids ministry. You should be partnering with parents, like setting up good partnerships in that way. You should be, like, I think setting up the idea of what small groups look like. So that way, when they get in the students, there's, I don't know what,
The idea is just like they are able to continue to build upon the foundation that we have set. I think so many times in kids ministry right now, and I'm trying to think of exact examples, but I feel like we have to build the foundation and the house. And it's like, no, that's not how that works. ⁓ We should be planting the seeds, we should be setting the soil, Maybe get the layout for the foundation. And then it's like, no, a healthy kids ministry then passes that off.
and allows the student ministry to kind of build a house. And I think the realm of kids ministry is like because kids ministry leaders sometimes can kind of come in with a woe is me like mindset or like people don't care about kids ministry. They feel like they have to overprove themselves instead of actually being good stewards with their student person to be like, hey, no, like here, here's the groundwork. I'm passing this off to you to now like continue to build upon it. ⁓
I think that's where I've seen a little bit of the, I don't know, disconnect with kids in student ministry. I think one thing too, kids ministry feels like they always have to measure up against like student ministry success. And they feel like they have to do it at the same place. Whereas like kids ministry is like, hey, I don't think you should be measuring success. Like whether it's through like data or things like that in the same way that student ministry is. don't measure your numbers of like
kids who go to BBS against like kids who are going to student camp, right? Student camp's always gonna be the more fun one, like exciting, not to say BBS isn't, all right? I know you've written a book on BBS and I very much love kids camps and BBSs. ⁓ But like, hey, like, let's not take away the thunder of like what student ministry's doing just because like we feel like we have to compete in that realm. So I don't know if that was the best way of answering that. That's just kind of in the top of my head right now.
of like, man, I think that's where like kids ministry feels like they want to try to be the younger sibling to copy, but also in the same way, try to be the older sibling to control what student ministry does. If that makes sense.
KIDMIN U Team (39:27)
Yeah.
No, I like the way that you framed that because I don't know if I would have thought about it that way or described it that way, but it clicked for me when you framed it that way. Because I think what I've noticed people doing and I've caught myself doing as well is having this feeling that I've got to fully form these little disciples before they get in youth ministry. Like I've got to do all of it and then hopefully they don't break them in youth ministry. You know what mean?
Like, guess somewhere deep down that has been the pressure. And I think over the last like five years or so, I've had to shift and say, listen, we're a team. And to your point, like each one of us is gonna have a different piece that we own in their journey. And that's not to say that we're not trying to create fully formed disciples by the end of kids ministry, but it does mean the way that we do our teaching and the way that we structure some things, it's like, hey,
Dan Pollak (40:05)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (40:22)
we're trying to lay a foundation that they can continue building on in middle school. And so I think, as you described this, I think that's a reason why sometimes we force some teaching on kids that they really should wait till middle school for. Like if you actually, okay, this is my pet peeve, so I'm gonna try and be gentle about this. But if you look at most curriculum publishers and you look at their oftentimes three year scope and sequence,
Dan Pollak (40:36)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (40:51)
I can find maybe like at least 30 % of the Bible stories in there that kids have no business learning. Like if you actually understand the theology, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, like sometimes it shouldn't be there because kids will just not get it, right? It's like just way over their head. So that's one camp. But there are others where it's like, this is a really nuanced idea that could actually be dangerous if a kid doesn't really understand multiple angles of it. Like for instance,
⁓ Why do we teach the story of Samson to kids? Listen, I got things to say to describe who Samson is, Samson is the guy who constantly like lives at the gym and chases girls. That's what he does. He's not a good guy. Like God redeemed some of that, but
Like that's not a story that we teach appropriately for kids or the story of Noah and the flood. That's a story where like the Lord wipes out people on the face of the earth. And yet we tell it like it's a farm story of all these animals coming and like it's cute or even like another one is, and I didn't even catch this until a couple of years ago when a volunteer complained to me and they said, Jeremy, why are we teaching the story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son Isaac on an altar? And I was like,
At first I thought she was just being a little bit high maintenance, but then I looked at it and prayed through it I was like, wow, that's actually kind of a lot to ask of kids. And at the time we were teaching that to preschoolers and it's like, what are they supposed to do with that? Are they supposed to go home and think that their parents might take them on an altar and sacrifice them? know, like some of these stories are way too big. And so all of this to say, if we believe that we have to teach kids everything that they need to know before middle school,
It's gonna drive us to make decisions like that that actually might not be for their benefit. But if we were willing to say, we're on the same team and I trust my youth pastor, I know that when I hand them off, they're gonna continue the work that we started, it transforms everything. And I also think just generally speaking, the way that we structure our teaching in youth ministry and kids can and should be different. Like I'm just a big believer that kids learn best through story.
And so that's why, whether you're teaching the Old Testament or the New, like finding ways to frame it within like something that actually happened. You know, I think sometimes we get into kids ministry or in the New Testament rather, and we teach it the same way we would in youth where we camp out in the book of James and we try and teach a principle. And it's possible to do that. Like we certainly can. But I think the best way that kids learn is if you had an example of that principle in the Bible story.
and helped it come to life. Whereas if I were in a youth group, I could go straight to James chapter four and I could just talk about that idea and just get straight to it, you know, and just make it all about application. All that to say, like, I do think that trust element between kids pastors and youth pastors can be a game changer, because we're all on the same team. And by the way, if it works both sides,
Dan Pollak (43:52)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (43:59)
where we're working together to create one seamless plan for how we want to disciple kids over time, how much more successful would we be? Like, I dare say a lot of churches don't have a true partnership there. There might be a little bit of a partnership, but in your mind, you've seen both sides of it. What would it look like to actually be a little bit more aligned? Like how could that relationship be better, you think?
Dan Pollak (44:09)
my gosh.
Yeah, absolutely. mean, here's the thing, if you're waiting for a family ministry pastor and next-gen pastor to mandate this for me, like, don't, like, you need to start that conversation. Like, if you're not getting a coffee, like, every other week or bi-weekly or, ⁓ you know, with, lunch, like, with your student person or, you know, vice versa, like, what are you doing? I don't think you can say you're truly for the next generation.
if you aren't willing to partner with the other half that works with that side of the thing, right? Like with the Next Gen and I think working together to be able to have the best impact in the lives of your kids and the teenagers that you are partnering together with, you have to understand where they're coming from. Because here's the thing too, a lot of times student ministry people, they're the ones that more times than not, they've gone to seminary because some of them maybe have some bigger aspirations.
They understand theologically where like they're talking about for the most part. They also like they know how to bring in a lot of good like insight into just things that like truly teenagers are facing and what ⁓ how to like navigate various issues that arise. ⁓ And I don't think like we give student ministry credit for that. Another thing that student ministry people do well is network.
Now you could say it's like, no, they all have egos. They got boosts. And it's like, no, that's not the case for every student ministry person. All right. But like they know how to network kids ministry people. And, you know, maybe it's because you feel like if you're listening to this, it's like you're like, well, I'm only part time or like I'm actually in a volunteer role, like leading this ministry. Like I'm not even an actual staff member because like that's the reality, too. That's how several like, I mean, a percentage of churches still run in America.
KIDMIN U Team (45:52)
Yeah.
Dan Pollak (46:17)
⁓ Is that it's not necessarily a designated full-time role that runs the kids ministry, but it's like hey like take the initiative Look at like meeting with your late student pastor make that a routine part to get to know what's happening in each other's ministry better you can support one another one of things I always love doing when I was ⁓ I I just recently moved campuses here at Flatirons, but my last campus where I was over all kids ministry ⁓ at that particular campus like
part of one of my responsibilities was running a child dedication. And the way I did child dedication was like, I would always have designated prayer leaders. And I really tried to use like prayer leaders who were actual parents of when they prayed over like other parents. Like it was that cool, intentional moment. Well, my student pastor was a parent and I'm like, hey man, like I would love for you to come be a part of this. Like I know child dedication, you like, you probably don't really know what that is, but I would love for you to come be a part of this. And I would love to help support you in any way.
So like showing up at each other's events, like to see what's happening, like I would go to youth worship nights or camp celebration nights. He would come to child dedications and baptism classes. We would host Next Gen orientations together. ⁓ Like that was, that was our partnership. And so for me, I've always found it like, Hey, I love what student ministry does. I think the work that they do is so important. I also know that the work that we do in kids ministry is so important. So like let's work together so that way we can like,
not be two separate ministries, like trying to push against each other, but actually be one cohesive Next Gen ministry that like, hey, it's like the moment I pass off a fifth grader into student ministry because we're heading into middle school, like I know they're in good hands because I know the student bastard is gonna pick up exactly where we left off.
KIDMIN U Team (48:06)
Yeah, yeah and again, I think it all comes down to that partnership and being willing to trust each other and to everything you're saying that takes investment, it takes time, it means hey we're gonna get lunch or get coffee, whatever. We're not just gonna show up to only the mandatory meetings and then hope we've got chemistry and hope we've got alignment, know? Like all that, I just think about, know, I'm a USC football fan. We've got our returning quarterback, Jaden Maiava coming.
Dan Pollak (48:10)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (48:34)
And in this spring camp, man, he's got a bunch of freshmen wide receivers. And so his big thing right now is how do I build chemistry with my receivers? That's not just on the football field. That's not just practice. They're getting barbecues, they're hanging out, they're doing that stuff. And all of that shows up like in the game in the fourth quarter when you're under pressure and you know the tendencies of your teammate and you know how to work together. Same thing here, man. When you invest in that relationship with your youth pastor or vice versa.
Dan Pollak (48:35)
Hehe.
KIDMIN U Team (49:04)
It really pays dividends long-term. What I'd to shift to a little bit, you mentioned it there, is you recently had a transition from working at one of the Flatirons campuses to the main one. And for those who aren't really familiar maybe with like multi-site dynamics, oftentimes like the campuses are a little bit more indicative of like a regular church in size and sometimes even the way you operate. that's, you know,
Dan Pollak (49:15)
Eh-eh.
KIDMIN U Team (49:31)
I think more relatable is what happens at like a regular campus. But then you get to the main one or the broadcast campus and it's usually like, it's way bigger, the scale is different, the way they operate is different. And that's kind of what you would think of as a traditional mega church. As you transition from like one of the campuses to the main campus, what was that like for you?
Dan Pollak (49:54)
Yeah, I mean, I'm now like several months in at this point. And I mean, I'll admit, like it was kind of a case of like variety of different things that kind of led to me like several departures of staff. ⁓ And I'm going to lie. Like when they first asked me, I was like, no, I was like, can I say no? ⁓ Like it was something I had to wrestle with because like like what you just mentioned, right? Like the campus I was at was averaging like like
It was technically like a mega church and it's like size wise, right? Like just for that campus alone, like we had around 1,100 people on a weekend overseeing a kids ministry of like around 200 and everything. And this was asking me to kind of step in for a long-term plan of like multiple roles, but like to step into an elementary ministry at our broadcast campus to focus in there because they had just gone through a lot of hiccups over the last couple of years.
in this elementary ministry had four times the amount of kids on average than my entire kids ministry I had at the campus I was just at. ⁓ And here's the crazy part. I had almost the same amount of volunteers. ⁓ I had almost the same amount of volunteers at the campus I was just at over our whole kids ministry to the amount of volunteers I was inheriting at our current campus, ⁓ of the broadcast campus. And so I would say,
KIDMIN U Team (51:07)
Wow.
Dan Pollak (51:21)
Like the biggest thing I did, I did this in both cases when I first started at Flyirons and also when I started at our broadcast site in Lafayette, Colorado. ⁓ The first thing I did was I just want to know the people I serve with. ⁓ And so I prioritize like sitting down with about ⁓ as many volunteers as I could. I said for my first two months, which I transitioned in November. ⁓ So, you know, like we're heading into Christmas time and,
We had Christmas services and had a plan for all of that, but I was like, I'm gonna make this a priority. If I'm gonna have any stake for the future, I need to know the people I'm serving with. And so I scheduled as many coffees, meals, Zoom calls as I could. I think I met up words of 80 to 85 volunteers in the span of two months, which was insane. ⁓ I'm a very extroverted person. I will say that pushed me to my limits. Because I was like, that's a lot.
KIDMIN U Team (52:16)
Ha ha.
Dan Pollak (52:17)
of getting to know people. But here's the thing, I'm so glad I did that because what I was able to then step into after Christmas and to be able to focus in on now, even like what I'm currently working on is it set the groundwork of like, hey, I'm not just some like random person coming in here, like that's gonna leave in 18 to 24 months, right? The statistic, but I'm like, this is my heart. This is my story. This is how God has worked for my story.
This is how he continues to work through my story. This is my heart for kids ministry and like also taking the time to hear their stories. And I'm so glad I did because all the stories I got to hear, like they continue to feel me to want to meet with more volunteers and to hear their stories. And like it just created an equal playing ground of like, hey, I'm not here to sit on some pedestal because I'm at the main campus now and just like fly by the seat of my pants. Like, no, like I'm like, I'm here to serve alongside you.
to link arms and like, we're gonna move this ministry forward. And it's been good, man. Like I'm loving the challenges that arise. I love the trust that has been placed on me by our leadership, by my campus pastor, just to be able to try some things and be like, hey, and that was like part of it. Like when I was sitting down with our Net Shem pastor and even like one of the guys on our lead team, they asked me like if I would consider coming over, I was like, hey,
I'm gonna ask when I make some decisions that I know might not be popular, not because like what I was doing was like, hey, like you're doing this wrong, but I know I'm gonna push against some gears, maybe some sacred cows that have been calling like this ministry home for a while. I want to know that I have your guys to support and I laid out my plan and everything and they're like, absolutely. And they've been behind me, continuing to pour into me to make sure I don't get the, you know, swallowed up by the beast.
But also like, hey, like we trust Dan, like we think he's the right person to be stepping into this role. And I feel like I have a lot of trust right now from leaders to parents that I've been building up with to like my fellow staff that's on our kids ministry team at this campus ⁓ and to leadership. And it's been going good. I'm enjoying it. I love a good challenge too. So.
KIDMIN U Team (54:36)
Yeah, you're in the right spot, man, because I think when you're at a large growing church, it's going to push you and it's going to require a lot of investment. And I think it's it's so funny what you said, because I think the knock on really large churches from the outside is that, gosh, there's no way they can be relational. There's no way they can actually like be personal and know people.
And what I found is actually the opposite. I found that a lot of those churches, the reason that they've grown to where they are is because they fight so hard to stay small.
nobody would have asked you to go meet with 85 people right at the end of the year, heading into Christmas time. Nobody expected that of you, but you knew this is really important. I'm gonna start with my team and my team is gonna do that for others, right? So I think that would surprise some people. ⁓
What are some other things that maybe surprised you or you think would surprise other people about being a part of a big church? Because I think sometimes it looks like, oh my gosh, they've got an unlimited budget, unlimited volunteers, everything must be good and they must have everything figured out because look how big they are. But we both know that's not the case. What ended up surprising you that you didn't see coming?
Dan Pollak (55:51)
I mean, if you're thinking bigger is always better, like that's not the case. Now, here's the thing. I'm very fortunate ⁓ and what I love doing at Flatirons and like we like the opportunities that we get right now, like I love the heart of this church and what we're trying to do here out in the Front Range Denver area ⁓ in Colorado, knowing that we get to reach a very unique crowd. ⁓ But with that said, like Flatirons has had a unique history.
of kind of like pre, we call it pre-sabbatical and post-sabbatical. So our like lead pastor, ⁓ he was actually on episode of a Cary New Off, if for all you podcast listeners, you can go listen to that. ⁓ But our lead pastor was put on a four sabbatical right before COVID. ⁓ And here's the thing, what I loved about this and what I heard about him speak about it, ⁓ the work that he did and the realization of like, like we're a massively fast growing church.
and he wasn't healthy and also the organization wasn't healthy. So with all that said, that took place, COVID didn't happen and the church over the last like five, six years has kind of been like reshaping itself here ⁓ out in the farm range part of Colorado. And I've loved it because ⁓ they're realizing like, hey, just because we were bigger didn't mean that we were the best at what we did. So taking the time to learn from others.
from other great ministry-minded, strategically-minded people coming in and developing our staff, from people like a Katie Cole to Lee Coe, some really great minds in that, but also, hey, the systems that we thought we didn't want to put in place for some reason or form, for example, they didn't start background checks in kids ministry up until four years ago, which you're like, I'm sorry, what? Not at all.
KIDMIN U Team (57:44)
Wait, not at all.
Dan Pollak (57:47)
Yeah, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, all right. Everybody just heard that and they're like, I'm so sorry. What? They're like, that's the one thing we have for us. ⁓ So like. That was something that like flatters just like they were a church that they didn't want to create like systems and stuff because they thought systems sometimes can drown out how you see people. Right. But that's what you have to allow it. If you set good systems in place.
KIDMIN U Team (57:47)
my gosh.
Yeah.
Dan Pollak (58:15)
It actually allows you, like we've talked about, to be able to see people better. ⁓ And maybe people that you didn't realize that you weren't seeing. ⁓ And I think that's the important part. so over the last, I've been here now just over three years and we've gotten to help like build some like clarity and structure because it's like, hey, we didn't have job descriptions for our volunteers. Like people didn't really know what they were doing in kids ministry. Like the same person that would host would also be the person that was helping him run the room.
Helping like do bathroom runs like helping with checkout and I'm like, well, hey, that's how you lead to volunteer burnout. Like having like we didn't really have small groups like they said they have small groups, but then like I watched it happen. I was like, well, first off that small group has 35 people. That's what we call a classroom in the Colorado school system. All right. Like that is just like these things sort of like, hey, you're like, wait, what? like people think all the time like, like.
I need to go to a large church to like learn from them and see what they're doing. And it's like, Hey, like, he looks like a shiny penny. And here's the thing, I don't want to downplay the amazing ministry that they were doing, because they were doing a lot of great ministry. But it's like, doesn't always mean that we have it all figured out. And so that's why for me, and I know a lot of people now here on staff, like we prioritize like going to learn from people larger than us, like churches, like, you know, like a North Point, a Southeast.
Traders point like churches like that, but also like I want to go talk to the like smaller churches in our area and see like, hey, we're serving the same communities. Like how what are you guys doing? Like I could care less about the size. I just want to learn from different perspectives, different voices and just see like, hey, what are you doing? Well, how can we like work together like with the same sort of mindset and adapt and taken into it? And so I think that's the beauty of like
where Fine Arts is now and now we're setting up some great structures and systems, not only in kids ministry, now we background check everybody, thank the Lord. But all these different things of like, hey, our student ministry is getting better with systems, ⁓ our spiritual formation, there's just more processes that are actually allowing us to be more intentional with people now than there has ever been.
KIDMIN U Team (1:00:31)
Yeah,
it was so funny. The biggest church I ever worked at, I remember like starting to work there and I just assumed, like, I don't know, I put this church on a pedestal. And so I just assumed that when I showed up, everything would be dialed, the systems would be set. All that stuff would just be.
top notch and I got inside and I was like, whoa, you guys don't have this, you don't have that. And it was kind of like what you were talking about where we were kind of just running on momentum. And I learned something there. Number one, ⁓ big churches don't have everything figured out. That's probably the biggest takeaway. But number two, I learned that sometimes with fast growing churches, they're growing so fast that they almost don't have time
Dan Pollak (1:01:07)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:16)
The fast growing churches are just trying to keep up. A lot of times they just moved into a new building, they just expanded their kids area, they just had to recruit a hundred more volunteers to keep up with whatever and you're just trying to keep up, man.
Dan Pollak (1:01:27)
Yep.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:31)
And so I think for all the people who just look at a big church and think, man, they've got everything figured out. No, they don't. And you can be faithful wherever you're at, whether you've got 10 kids or 100 or 1000 or whatever. It's about being faithful with whatever God's called you to. OK, the the last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up, because I want to honor our time together, too. ⁓ But I know there's a temptation for large churches to create their own stuff all the time, especially curriculum.
Dan Pollak (1:01:47)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:02:00)
Like I've been on
teams where they're like, well, we're a big church, so I feel like we just have to create our own curriculum. You know, why would we buy it when we already have a creative team and we could do this? Is that something you guys have thought about? And if so, what's that conversation like these days?
Dan Pollak (1:02:16)
I mean, like right now we're kind of in the midst of conversations. Like several other churches, like kind of throughout the country right now, like we found ourselves like going for a generosity initiative just for what the next like, you know, three, four, five years holds for us as a church. And we are very fortunate for ours. like, think what one of the things that we want to do is like, we want to develop our people well and like,
obviously stuff that makes like Flatirons what Flatirons is. And part of that was like, hey, like with kids ministry, like, what does it look like for us to like create our own content? They had done their own content pre COVID. And then kind of when restructuring and stuff like that took place, they actually went to a curriculum that we've used since that point, kind of since 2021 is when we started using it. And here's what I'll say. Like, I think we could do
a lot more intentional job of, ⁓ you know, adapting the curriculum to match us. Well, I think the thing of like, hey, like we want to teach our people like our values and the things that we value as a church. Like I think naturally that supports the conversation is like, well, we should create our own content for that. And it's like, well, what if it's a good mixture of both? Like what if it's actually just, you know, getting the bare bones of like a pre-existing content and then being more intentional of how we set it up.
to adapt it and then adding certain things of like, hey, we don't have to use the teaching videos that we get out of our content, right? Like we could, we could like film our own. Like it doesn't have to be, you know, just to throw it out there and episode of like Story Lab or so-and-so show from Amazing Life Orange, right? Like it could be like one of our own kids pastors or a host like teaching like in a video. So it feels more like our own, like.
And I think that's kind of where we're at right now. We're having some conversations. We just experimented with kind of like our pilot. I had to explain to people what a pilot felt like because I was like, hey, it's like what TV used to be. And they're like, wait, what? I was like, yeah, I forgot Netflix just drops it all on at once. But I was like, hey, this is our pilot weekend. So next weekend, there's not going to be another new episode. All right. Like ⁓ we're to take it back and everything. But we.
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:27)
Yep.
Dan Pollak (1:04:36)
kind of did a pilot of like the stuff we've been working on in regards to situational videos that we've been kind of ⁓ experimenting with, ⁓ as well as ⁓ our teaching videos, we filmed our own worship stuff. ⁓ And I think that's something that we are rethinking through. And I think it's setting a good boundary of like, do we need to go all the way like, and like create it from scratch? Or could we take something
and really adapt it in a way which honestly most curriculum that you buy, should be adapting. You should definitely be adapting. If you're just using it like for the play it is like, yeah, you're not going to they have to leave. We talked about this, right? Like they have to write it in a way that is able to hit a broad scope. But you should be taking that to your church's context to the people like and being able to adapt that in a way that best fits your church. So if we did that, couldn't we like just.
like continue to build around that. And I think that's the conversations we're having right now. We just hired a new kids pastor ⁓ that will kind of help oversee a lot of those things. And I think those are the conversations that they get to have the benefit of having now ⁓ and be like, hey, cool. ⁓ I think a lot of times when churches, especially larger churches, they feel like they have to create their own. And I don't know if this is to be careful on how I say this.
But it's like, do we need to prove something or it's like, because we can't, does it mean we have to? Like, here's the thing, I've talked to some of my friends who work at some of the largest churches in the country who do do their own content. And here's the thing, they're like, hey, it could be better, but staffing wise, they don't have the support there, right? Or, you know, because of how they have to structure as an organization, they're not to the full extent of what it could be from like a grow or.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:05)
Hmm.
Dan Pollak (1:06:30)
Amazing life or a wanna or whatever you want to label out there, right? And so I think that's kind of where we're thinking about what it looks like, but we may not need to go all the way from like, you know, recreating the wheel.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:45)
Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that because I just had ⁓ one of my friends on that we worked with ⁓ at Sandals and her job was to lead the team that created original curriculum, and the only thing they did was kids content.
Dan Pollak (1:06:54)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:00)
And so they created a three year scope and cycle. And then when they completed it, they just decided, Hey, I think we're going to start using a publisher and we're going to adapt. you're talking like they came full circle on that. And I know a lot of those churches that you mentioned, some of them love it, but a lot of them are like, Hey, if we had to start over again, we'd probably just like take a preexisting thing and then spend a ton of energy just like.
Dan Pollak (1:07:02)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:26)
leveling it up for us and creating, you know, supplemental things like you talked about. So the core of it is established and then we can create whatever pieces we feel like are missing. ⁓ I think there's a there's a stewardship element in that. I think it's super strategic. ⁓ And I think moving forward, if I could do it all over again, I would probably tell people it's not always worth it. You know, ⁓ like
Dan Pollak (1:07:42)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:52)
So to take people behind the scenes for a little bit, and I'm not gonna share specifics, but I'll share with you enough where you can connect the dots. So I just said we had a team of seven people. ⁓ So let's just say seven people on a full-time salary, whatever you think that means, you're paying seven people for a whole year. That's $1 amount that goes into it. It was a three-year scope and sequence. So you're paying them for three years, realistically, probably four or more, because there's some lead time to develop this stuff.
In addition to that, you might be paying for a studio or video equipment or creative resources or ⁓ licensing materials, whatever. You're talking a project like this costs hundreds of thousands of dollars. Like if you add all that together, like conservatively, that's what it costs to create that project. And so at the end of it, ⁓ yeah, I don't think it was super surprising to say, hey, do we need to continue doing this all the time? I think at some point in the future,
Dan Pollak (1:08:45)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:08:49)
it may be appropriate to bring that back. But ⁓ that's a big investment, man. And I think you could go a long way by customizing and creating ⁓ your own add-ons, if you will. You can accomplish a lot that way.
Well, Dan, this was such a good conversation, man. I wanna keep going for another like hour.
Dan Pollak (1:09:06)
Absolutely.
KIDMIN U Team (1:09:11)
but I know we both have things going on. ⁓ If people want to follow you or your ministry or anything that you're up to right now, where would you point them?
Dan Pollak (1:09:21)
Yeah, I mean, you can follow me on Instagram. ⁓ I post ⁓ ministry insights from time to time. ⁓ Dan underscore Pollock, P-O-L-L-A-K. ⁓ But I would say like, yeah, we don't have a kids Instagram right now. We're one of the few churches to see. ⁓ Big churches don't have it all, right? ⁓ But ⁓ Fine Iron's Church, you can find us on Instagram. We post stuff about our kids ministry on there and everything. And so, yeah.
I would say those are kind of the areas that you can find me and everything. And I mean, if you listen to this and you always want to connect, I love connecting with people. So, mean, Jeremy's lived in my DM. ⁓ you know, so this is it started.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:02)
I did. Yep. That's how this started, man. The beginning of a beautiful friendship. Yeah.
man. Well, listen, one thing I would tell people listening is don't hesitate to reach out. I think sometimes we get nervous about that or we feel like, I don't want to bother people, whatever. I don't know if I've met a single ministry leader who isn't open to just helping and serving however they can. And so if there's something that Dan said that you want.
Dan Pollak (1:10:16)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:29)
little more context on or just some insight on, man, hit them up, slide into the DMs just like I did ⁓ way back when. Dude, thank you so much for coming on. This is really good. I still have a whole list of things that I wanna talk about that we didn't have time for. So I'll definitely have to have you on again. This is such a good conversation. For everybody tuning in, thank you for listening to this conversation.
Dan Pollak (1:10:46)
Let's go.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:52)
We'll see you next time.
